Infidel - discussion *may contain spoilers*

[Stormy]

I've finished Infidel already which surprised me. :O So I thought I'd jot down a few thoughts while they are still fresh in my mind, considering the end of July is three weeks away yet and I will forget whatever they were by then. :yes:

The one big thing that stands out for me is that what I thought I knew about Islam was completely false. After 9/11, I thought that the kind of Islamic followers who supported the terrorist attack were all part of a fanatical following of the faith. I honestly thought, having never read the Quran of course, that at its heart, it must be a very peaceful religion that has been taken out of context by a few extremists.

The genital mutilation....well that is nothing new to me and I certainly don't agree with it. I was surprised to learn that it is still common place in some parts of the world - bearing in mind that her biography was only published last year. The unnecessary death and illness that it causes is sickening really.

I'm glad that she survived her childhood and was able to break free of her mental "cage". I'm not sure I could live the life that she does....always under guard and threatened. But I think she must be incredibly brave to be able to speak out against her religion so openly with such fierce criticism of it. I suppose when you have come face to face with death as many times as she has in her life so far, what's one more? :dk:

[Patricia]

I found this book to be very enlightening, it showed the struggled and bravery of one woman against conditions many of us could hardly imagine.

It is extremely graphic but not gratuitous.... a real eye-opener.

I recommend this as a must read for anybody that thinks "one person cannot make a difference in the world"...thank goodness Ayaan Hirsi Ali never felt that way.

*My friend Anna had this in her must read pile....I begged to go first...:hehe: I would have been waiting for Xmas if I had waited for her to finish....now I she knows how good it is she has started it too. I am think she is going to join the book club so she can join in the discussion, apparently she has lots to say on the matter...LMAO..oh dear I have created a monster ...:hehe:

[zen]

i think i'm glad i wasn't around for this one! :)

[Stormy]

It's still not too late zen....still have a fortnight of July to go :P

[zen]

no, i don't think so thanks.. this is not my style of reading material at all.. and if religion in any form is involved, i'd probably end up offending anyone who has a faith of their own.. :)

[susiq]

Wow - what a book!

Totally agree with you Stormy. It changed my view of Islam totally. Or more to the point, explained how it all worked. I understood that women were lesser than men but had no idea that the Quran actually dictated how women should act and be treated.

I can appreciate how fanatical some people can become. Mind you, as she keeps repeating, it is very hard not to think any differently if you are bought up the way she had been. It also highlighted how religion, any kind really, can really blind people in decision making. Could this be why some countries can just not get it together and move forward? I'm not being condascending here in any way but some third world countries are truly stuck in the dark ages and this would have to be a contributing factor.

I thought her story was incredibly well written. The genital mutilation was no surprise for me either, as I have read Desert Flower by Wallis Diri and I think they are about the same age. It's an appalling practice.

As for actually denouncing the faith - that was incredibly brave.

The only thing I was left wondering was whether she had encouraged her mother to go back to Somalia. There was mention of her father in the end but none of her mother.

In terms of being called a revolutionary. Yes totally. To be able to stand up for what you believe in and express it as she did is totally inspiring.

[Stormy]

I did wonder what had happened to her mother....I only assumed that she had in fact returned to Somalia after Haweya died. And no, I don't think that you are being condescending at all in that view....I do think that the fanatical view of Islam and the demeaning of women as contributing members of society does hold them back. :yes:

Although in all fairness to the Islamic people, many other African countries with a Christian or tribal faith basis have similar struggles in terms of equity between men and women. It is the culture they were raised in....the very same culture that women in the Western world were raised in not so long ago...

[susiq]

So true Stormy. There's a lot to be said for women's liberation

[Night Crawler]

First my apologies for taking so long to post this. Honestly, I actually thought I had already done so until I checked the thread again last night! Anyway, here’s my thought’s on Infidel, by Ayaan Hirsh Ali.

Warning - Post Contains Some Graphic Material

I knew of Taliban, their oppression and terror, from articles and news clips I’d seen a decade, before 9/11 happened. While shocked that we in the free world were still allowing this kind of thing to happen, I have to say that this book really brought the horror of it all slamming home for me!

Born of my (X) generation, Hirsh Ali’s life seems to me, to have been something from a history book - a cross between medieval ignorant savagery, political strife and new-age warfare.

Though I knew of female circumcision, as it is practiced in such places and religions, I didn’t realize how truly brutal the horrific process is. Generally performed by a male stranger with scissors or knife and zero medical training - little children are held down in unsanitary public areas - from the kitchen table to large rock outside - and it is more often than not the child’s own FEMALE family members initiating the process and holding them down. Can you imagine, even a little being a small, terrified little girl being held down by loved ones as she screams in agony and terror? Scarred maimed, forever deprived of a normal sex life. (And yes, they even do it to their little boys, though they are not usually left nearly as scarred or sexually dysfunctional.)

Look, I realize that some of you may not appreciate such a long(ish) post about this, (especially as it’s late), or that I’m getting pretty graphic here, but I feel very strongly about regarding the whole issue of the brutalization and oppression of women.

These girls, after their clitoris and labia are literally hacked off, are sewn shut, with only a tiny hole left to urinate, then have their legs tied together for several days to ensure a thick layer of scar tissue grows. No painkillers or sedatives of any kind are used and the occasion is often treated as a celebration with many witnesses gathered to behold the joyous event. Years later, a huge amount of force, sometimes even being cut again, is required to pierce the tissue for intercourse. The theory behind all this being that the scar tissue will act as flesh chastity belt, keeping girls “pure” as ordered by Allah according the the Quran - thus ensuring virginity for their future husbands to enjoy. This procedure, done under such conditions as it usually is, can, and frequently does, result in death.

Yet, despite the horror of her circumcision and a lifetime of beatings and verbal abuse, Hirsh Ali never loses her sense of humanity, love or compassion. After fleeing a forced marriage to a complete stranger, she fled to Holland. Despite her somewhat sketchy education, she earned a college degree in political science, and went on to became an MP in Holland’s parliamentary legislature. Using this forum, Hirsh Ali became a vocal advocate for the rights of Muslim and the reform of Islam. This made her the target of reactionary Islamists and other politicians, even to point of threatening her life - and succeeding in the killing of her partner & friend in the making of her film Submission - they were still unable to silence this remarkable women.

Effectively bullied out of Holland - once again the victim becomes the target - Ali now lives in the United States and works hard at her message of reform and equality in the Muslim world, and also for the rest of humanity.

Has this changed my view of Islam? YES! And sadly, not for the better.

Below are two links you might find of interest if Hirsh Ali’s story has caught your ear:

http://i321.photobucket.com/albums/nn366/arohk_2008/Emoticons%20and%20Hugs/174.gif American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy in Washington, D.C. - a think tank she joined after leaving Holland - www.aei.org

http://i321.photobucket.com/albums/nn366/arohk_2008/Emoticons%20and%20Hugs/174.gif A version Theo van Gogh (deceased) and Hirsh Ali’s film, Submission, Part One - www.youtube.com

[jaideii]

Effectively bullied out of Holland - once again the victim becomes the target - Ali now lives in the United States and works hard at her message of reform and equality in the Muslim world, and also for the rest of humanity.

Thanks for your post NC, it's always good to see a thoughtful and thorough post!

And yes, once again, the powers to be, as we so see often, tried to suppress a worthy voice, but she defied that and people have listened.

The only thing issue i have is that Islam is not all bad. And she is not representative of the whole Muslim culture.

She is but one voice, as valuable as that is. But she is not the only voice of Islam.

[Night Crawler]

Thanks for your post NC, it's always good to see a thoughtful and thorough post!

And yes, once again, the powers to be, as we so see often, tried to suppress a worthy voice, but she defied that and people have listened.

The only thing issue i have is that Islam is not all bad. And she is not representative of the whole Muslim culture.

She is but one voice, as valuable as that is. But she is not the only voice of Islam.

True, she is not the only voice, and it is only one person's personal story. However, I looked up her references to what is said in the Quran and she's right, those exact words are what I found in the online English translation. I also read several articles about the beatings, burnings and killings of Muslim women around the world, and the men who literally get away with murder in the name of religion. So yes, I still think it's very messed up faith, but then I kind of feel that way about all religions!

[susiq]

NC, thanks for such a great post!

I was also deeply moved by this book and much like you it really highlighted my dislike of the Islam faith.

I'm off to check out the links you had posted.

[Night Crawler]

You're welcome! I check the think tank site a couple times a month to see if she's got any new papers out and also to see what else the tank is researching. Some of it is really interesting. Cheers.

[jaideii]

I yes, I still think it's very messed up faith, but then I kind of feel that way about all religions!

Uh huh, exactly. When you start looking at all the churches, cathedrals and buildings of worship around the world..you can see where the wealth and power stood in a society..Islam is not the only religion that has it's atrocities...

[kezabelle]

Well, I've only jsut read this and finished it a couple of days ago, so thought I'd have my say :hehe:

All of the things mentioned I have heard before - including the fact that the Q'ran condones these practices. What I found though, is that it was a true eye opener to anotehr culture and way of thinking. I gave hubby snippets to read and he was horrified.

I know I couldn't live the life she is now living, but I understand why she does - it would be hard to ignore these atrocities when you know you have the power to make a difference.

But, I also agree she is only one voice. I realise she speaks for a number of Muslim people (possibly a large number) and particularly for certain regions, but she talks about others seeing the faith as being gentle and peaceful - her father included. The Q'ran is apparently taught by rote with no understanding, so the impression I had was that people really do grow up ignorant of the 'truth' of the scriptures - small sections are simply quoted when the need arises.

Another thing that actually irritated me was the whole lying to get refugee status thing. I realise she had a reat reason and I'm sure I would have done the same thing, but she mentions that 'everyone' lies to get to live in europe. I truly feel for people who have to live in societies such as this, or that are ripped apart due to war and upheaval, but to think that lots/most people are lying simply to get to live in another country irks me.

[susiq]

Keza, well done on finally finishing.

Good point on the lying to live in a country comment though. We could probably never imagine that every happening here but it must totally soul destroying to have to even contemplate it.

[jaideii]

New book almost coming up eh?

[susiq]

I better get reading! I have it at least!

[kezabelle]

Just picked it up from the library yesterday :)