Light in the Window

[Stormy]

1st of September it is.....so I'm giving this one more shot before I give it up for lost. :)

The good, the bad and the ugly.....let your thoughts run free! :D

[ezmay]

did you like the book stormy? i have read it before and liked it. Imade me cringe in places but only because i know its true and not fictional.

[Stormy]

Overall I was surprised....I actually did enjoy the read. :)

There were moments when I felt she was a bit disjointed in her writing....but I think that the editors probably left it that way so that it gave more reality to the story. I did have to keep reminding myself that this was 60yrs ago because I kept thinking that she should grow a spine and stand up to the nun in charge. But it was another era and nurses just didn't do that. :hehe:

It made me sad to think of this place being treated like a penal colony rather than a temporary home for girls who might have gone and got themselves "in trouble". And obviously they knew they were doing the wrong thing (the church group running it) or else why would they go to the effort of giving them a nice welcome, to then treat them as slaves. :uhno:

[susiq]

I liked it as well Stormy.

Much the same, I felt at times she should have turned around and really told the nun what she really thought.

On your comment about they obviously knew what they were doing was wrong - I really have to disagree.

I think the head nun would have totally though she was doing the right thing. That's why she kep saying to them repeatedly - was the 5 minutes of fun worth all of this?

She would have just thought - this is god's way of punishing you for having sex out of wedlock etc...

I think it would have been nice to have an epilogue though on how her life turned out. She obviously married Patrick and lived in Cork but didn't go into much more detail.

[Night Crawler]

Now I'm all confused again.... I thought we settled on reading in Sept, dissussing in Oct.? Haven't even bought the book yet.

[Stormy]

NC just come back when you've read it. :dk: I don't know what the confusion is on your part.....I'm following what you originally suggested - decide the book the month ahead, so that it becomes the following month's book for discussion. That is what you proposed and I'm following it. :)

Susi I just thought that they'd have to know they were doing something incredibly wrong (morally anyway), why else create a subterfuge to allow them to think on admission that they would have a reasonably comfortable existence there? I know the recurring theme was that the girls were "naughty" but I do think the nuns were deliberately deceitful in their approach to new admissions.

I've been doing a bit of Googling about June Goulding since I read the book but I'm not coming up with much to do with her life after the home. Although I did notice that my book had an epilogue - I got the large print version which was published after the original one came out. But even that did not give much detail of her life....only a few follow-up stories of people who contacted her who were related to the people in the story.

[Night Crawler]

Okay. Doesn't really matter much to me anymore which way we do it. :D

[Coffeebean]

I haven't bought this book yet LOL
Am halfway thru Wolf in Shadow.... hopefully I wont get too far behind :D

[ezmay]

what i found to be most traumatizing for the girls was that they kept their babies for so long after the birth and the kids were able to bond with their mothers.
Yes at the time you were bad and stupid for having a child out of wedlock but if it wasnt bad enough the girls had to give up their baby without choice but they had to raise the child to 3 years spending all their time with them. Those poor kids.

[Stormy]

I thought that was insane on their behalf....the kids screamed for their mums as much as the mums cried for losing them. I can understand maybe breastfeeding them for the 10 days thing....although even that I have trouble comprehending as breastfeeding is bonding in itself I would think. :dk:

[susiq]

Take your point Stormy re: the nuns. Have to agree - I guess especially with the story of the rebel - can't remember her name but she was from a well to do family.

I did some googling too and didn't come up with much. My book had an epilogue but it was only 1 letter from someone she had cared for.

As for the 3 years, that was just a horrible practice. Although, what was adoption like back then? Was it easier to place an older child than a baby?

[Stormy]

I was trying to look into that....why they wanted to adopt out the 3yo rather than babies. But it seems there's not much information about it in the library, well my local one anyway. The only thing I can think of is that slightly older children might be easier to place back in those days (the whole children should be seen not heard thing springs to mind) because they are past the fussy baby stage and are toddlers by then. Maybe they were seen as being easier to look after?? Although I'm really not sure of the logic there....always thought once they start walking is when the headaches start. :dk:

I think maybe they would have been better off placing the tots in a separate convent where they are only cared for by the nuns. But by the sounds of it, their mums didn't get too much time with them during the day anyway because they were always out working with the tots left in their cribs all day. Very sad isn't it, to think that it happened like that. :(

[jaideii]

Oops i just about missed this thread as i did the Wolf in Shadow! :blink:

I love reading anything Irish, because they have a quirky sense of humour, however they are also very empassioned people, as a rule. And they have a faith that is strongly embedded. And the Irish faith is predominantly surrounded by guilt, shame and sin. So a lot of literature by the irish can be humorous, but also very dark and dry.

I think June Golding's story was valuable because it was a story she experienced and was determined to publish. She portrayed the nun in a believable light and as it would have been during that period.

Nuns were acting on what they believe God wanted. They rarely read the Bible however, and didn't act on the scriptures. They acted on what they were taught by succeeding nuns. That's the hypcrisy.

They would have thought what they were doing, was right. I felt the head nun just thought what the unmarried girls were going through was the consequence of their actions. That they 'deserved' to be treated that way. They would have had filters on, and when the girls said they had a boyfriend (and no money to marry) it would have fallen on deaf ears. To them, they're unmarried, and therefore sinners. Black and White. Thank god it's changed.

It came across as a biographical memoir which had a sad and meloncholic tone. She got her message across. It's like she was relieved of the burden of her feelings in the book and was lighter at the end somehow.

The women were suppressed and the reality of the situation (the young mothers) was highlighted and it was very poignant when they had to be parted from their babies. As i was reading it i was also thinking, gosh, some women can be harsh. But i felt it was also a story of hope too.

It was hard reading it at a time when my daughter was pregnant, i found myself comparing her to their situation and just thinking how lucky my daughter is in so many ways :)

It's a good read, but June Golding is not a great author. :brow:

[susiq]

Hi Jaide, I agree - June Goulding is not a great author by it was a memoir really so I'm not expecting to see much else from her.

[jaideii]

Nightcrawler (nc) has asked me to let you know she will be bowing out of September's book. She has been suffering some personal problems at the moment and will be away for a bit, while she focusses on getting better..Hopefully she'll be back for October's book :)

[kezabelle]

Stormy - you've upset the apple cart again :hehe: That's what I got in trouble for in August :)

As for the book - it was an easy read, but a bit flat - but, as you girls have pointed out, it was a memoire. I had the feeling she was looking for vindication for her lack of effort all those years ago. Perhaps I was transferring, but she seemed to be apologising for not standing up for herself.

I had two children out of wedlock so thank God I don't live in Ireland in the 1950s! It seemed so incredibly sad and heartbreaking. Given the stories I have heard re. nuns and priests in the past, the attitude does not surprise me.

[Stormy]

That's the impression I got as well....that it was like an apology to those girls for not being able to fully stand up for their rights. Although given the era and the circumstances, she did do her best to be a comfort to the girls who were unfortunate enough to be there.

As for upsetting the apple cart, well folks can deal with it or they won't and it bothers me not one iota which way they swing. :P

[jaideii]

keza, yeah it can be sad and heartbreaking, but you know, some authors get the real irish message across really well i reckon, ie Mauve Binchy, in her books set in Ireland. Frank McCourt wrote dismally about the Irish way, but it was portrayed so well. Not sure that June Golding showed her passion, yeah it was more of a vindication, like you said.

The Irish, may have had a great catholic faith, and it may have been oppressive over there, in those times, but amidst that darkness there was also hope. I too, am glad the deeply ingrained attitude of sin isn't rife here in Aus today, or my gorgeous little grandson would be suffering. Old traditions can be so debilitating can't they!

By the way, Dublin, these days, is a rocketing city! Good Guiness! :) Hey BTW, did you know they used to give mothers in the hospitals Guiness, to encourage milk suppy! LMAO What a way to market the stuff hey!:P

Stormy, i agree! :D

[kezabelle]

Guiness is still promoted! :D Has some vitamin or other - B maybe? It's the only 'remedy' I didn't try during my breastfeeding trials :hehe:

It would be great to read the story of a girl who went through it - but I suppose we won't ever see that. June portrayed them as accepting their lot - I wonder if that's truly how they felt?

The other thing that amazed me was the lack of medical intervention actually required. Only one baby was still born in 9 months and all mothers survived as well. June regularly mentioned 9+ pound babies. I've now had 4 caesars - none of them wanted. I now live in an area that promotes natural birth and believes medical interventions occurs too often. This book made me wonder if maybe there isn't a bit of truth in it after all. I realise the girls were left unsutured and that certainly is not a good thing, and that their labours were more painful due to the length, lack of painkillers and lack of forceps or similar.... but I still wonder if maybe we do perform caesars, etc a bit too freely.

[Stormy]

I certainly think that caesars are done far too frequently in recent times. I can understand a c-section for an extremely large baby (thinking around the 12-4lb mark when I say extremely large) or if the mother's or baby's health is in jeopardy. But to simply book a c-section because the ultrasound indicates that it's larger than 8lbs seems a bit bizarre. So I wonder whether people generally see it as being a more controlled birth and therefore safer for the actual birth? It does make you wonder. :dk:

A midwife (who recently had a baby herself) once told me that around 1cm dilation an hour is a perfect vaginal delivery to avoid tearing. So that's what, ten hours?? :blink: Oh lordy.....makes me want to cry just thinking about it. :hehe:

[kezabelle]

Ah, well, my first was a LOT longer than that - and we only made 7cm and then went back to 5cm :headh: so I do think it was needed then. the second was a specialist saying the entrance to my pelvis is too small - but a couple of doctors have since said that shouldn't have mattered so who knows... But, I remember being stunned when I had the first as I had no idea just how common they were - but everyone seemed to have had at least one!

But, enough about me :hehe: Imagine being told today that you had to give birth under those circumstances? I realise people do choose to do it that way, but I can just picture most people I know being horrified and certainly kicking up a fuss! :hehe:

[Stormy]

Kerrie, I can guarantee you that when my time comes to travel that path, I will be demanding Pethidine because it just sounded horrific what they had to endure. :blink: I know pain free, completely natural births are desired by some women but OMG I just don't think I could do it. :headh:

[kezabelle]

Kimba was going to have a natural birth for her first, but after a protracted labour, opted for pethidine :hehe: I wanted all teh drugs under the sun on hand just in case and they'd only give me gas! :)